You've Been Warmed

How To Measure Positive Impact w/ Iulian Circo, Founder of Proof Of Impact

Episode Summary

An episode focused on how to measure positive impact in purpose-driven organizations. Iulian Circo - founder of Proof of Impact - joins me to discuss how the young generation is refusing the status quo, how the macro trends in business have evolved over the past 40 years and how his startup is making use of blockchain technology to fight climate change and bring positive impacts to the world.

Episode Notes

Iulian Circo is a former human-rights lawyer who has worked with a lot of NGOs and initiatives in both Africa and Asia, even working in conflict areas. He's more recently become a social entrepreneur as he is passionate to bring market forces into the mix to make the world more sustainable.

His company - Proof of Impact - utlilises blockchain technology to measure the positive impact of various world problems - including climate change, health, sustainability or pollution.

We went into a lot of interesting topics such as why we are creating a new economic framework for the world, how the young generation is forcing businesses to become purpose-driven, how impact can be measured within companies or how we need to create frameworks to measure the externalities of companies in a comparable way. Finally, we dove deep into Proof of Impact to better understand his project.

It might be tricky to understand what Proof of Impact does for those who are not that aware of blockchain technology, but the phrase that Iulian said that stuck with me is that they are bringing "liquidity into impact", essentially creating financial products that bring investments into measurable actions that make a change for the better (such as reducing child mortality rates, cleaning plastic off of beaches or installing solar panels on houses).


3:07 - Iulian's Background & The Generational Shift We're Experiencing

6:38 - How Will Companies Of The Future Differ From The Present Ones

14:07 - How Do You Measure Impact For Purpose-Driven Businesses

17:10 - The Evolution Of Macro Trends In Business Over The Past 40 Years

19:40 - How Should Companies Measure Their Negative Externalities

21:38 - What Does Proof Of Impact Do?

28:10 - How Proof Of Impact Could Facilitate A Reduction In Child Mortality Rates (In A Measurable Way)

34:28 - Why Blockchain Should Work In The Background

40:06 - Business vs Science vs Politics vs Society

45:32 - How Society Influences Everything


Iulian's Twitter Profile -

Proof Of Impact Website -

Proof Of Impact Twitter -

Episode Transcription

Iulian Circo: (00:00)
We are now at the dawn of a new economic framework right. [inaudible] And this, this new generation is very, very different than the guys from before. Mmm. They, they question the economy fundamental. They question this idea that that economic growth is everything. They don't trust corporations like their parents used to. They don't trust government. They don't trust banks. They don't even trust the media. Right. They, they learn, they basically came of age, you know, I need all fake news. Yeah. And they are slowly developing an identity around purpose and authenticity. They, you know, they want to have authentic experiences. They want to have a purpose in their life. They want to travel, they want to have more experiences. They want to, they really, really wanted a positive impact in the world. And this is right. I mean, I think that this is, this is basically what's going to get us out of here.

YBW Intro: (00:58)
Ladies and gentlemen. You've been more, it's time to figure out the climate crisis with the top scientists, activists and entrepreneurs helping us get out of this mess. Now let's welcome your host. Did I? Gosh, in three two one

Dragos: (01:23)
Hello everyone. I'm feeling extremely energized after I've just spoken with [inaudible] Chico. You, Dan is a social entrepreneur and founder of proof of impact, a blockchain startup that facilitates impacting the world for the better through measurable means via blockchain infrastructure. UDN is a former humans rights lawyer who has worked with a lot of NGOs and initiatives in both Africa and Asia, even working in conflict areas. He's more recently become a social entrepreneur as he is passionate to bring market forces into the mix to make the world more sustainable. We went into a lot of interesting topics such as why we are going through a new economic framework, how the young generation is forcing businesses to become purpose-driven, how impact can be measured within companies or how we need to create frameworks to measure the externalities of companies in a comparable way. Finally, we dove deep into proof of impact to better understand his project.

Dragos: (02:20)
It might be tricky to understand what proof of impact does for those of you who are not that aware of blockchain technology. But the phrase that you, Leanne said that stuck with me is that they are bringing liquidity into impact, essentially creating financial products that bring investments into measurable actions that make a change for the better, such as reducing child mortality rates, cleaning plastic off of beaches, or installing solar panels on houses. I'm fully energized after this episode and I really hope you will share my excitement. So let's go. All right. Joined now by Yan here on the line directly from Vienna. How are you today? Union.

Iulian Circo: (03:05)
Right. Wow, how are you?

Dragos: (03:07)
Yeah, very good, very good. We had an awesome conversation last week and you've had a big history of work in the sustainability space both with nonprofit organizations and most recently as an entrepreneur. So I just wanted to give people a perspective of what you're working on and how the landscape of climate change and sustainability has evolved over these past 2025 years that you've been involved in this area. So I kinda wanted to first start with you giving us a brief rundown of your activities, how you, how you got started, where you lived, what you got involved in, and ultimately how you became a social entrepreneur.

Iulian Circo: (03:54)
Well, I had, I mean I probably had that quiet, that unique pass through social enterprise. And in many ways my evolution as a social entrepreneur was, was Mark by my own experiences I guess. And, and the self of the firm figures if I leave too. So [inaudible] I started my career as a human rights lawyer which, you know, in that, in the mid nineties, that was the thing. And I, and you know, and, and obviously I come, I grew up I grew up in [inaudible] in a place where, where I've kind of learned that youth, maybe the, you know, I've learned the values of the human rights and, and this whole principles. And I become a human rights lawyer. And then I suppose too, my human rights lawyer career by working mainly in post-conflict environments around the refugees, migrants asylum seekers. And that has broke me throughout the two thousands equal, I don't know, the more interesting kind of locations, I guess, and, and cry the situations of that particular era.

Iulian Circo: (04:58)
So I've, I've done peacekeeping operations, I work in [inaudible] so the large, I've worked in large set of refugee settings. I've spent three years in Somalia during the war with with at York castle. My perspective evolved obviously with all these experiences and then, and then not has led me into more call more traditional development work. I started to get more interested in, in system change and, and then institutions and in supporting, supporting, you know, support the building has your systems at national level and regional level. And obviously you can't have a system without the markets. So I got really interested into through using market dynamics [inaudible] Mmm. In a way. That's basically where my social entrepreneurship journey started. I [inaudible] I'm really into, I'm meeting through finding ways to we'll use market dynamics. [inaudible] Had a positive impact. [inaudible] I guess along the way is I've also notice how people use technology. And I think that's, I think that in places like Somalia or, or in places with low infrastructure, there's no apology is much more of a thoughts multiplier then it would be in downtown London. And I've, I've, I've gotten really indices into that and I, you know, since then, I guess my sweet spots always been at the sectional off if not Logix impact and, and business model or market dynamics.

Dragos: (06:38)
Okay. So in that sense, how, how would you describe the differences between being involved in nonprofits and more recently going on a path of entrepreneurship and, and being in a for profit company that still has the same objective of helping the world? Is it easier to scale? Is it easier to have more impact this way?

Iulian Circo: (07:02)
He'll be honest. I mean, I, I know that'd be fun. I don't like operate in absolutes of, plus I'm, I'm, I'm, I, I take pride in being and becoming more prominent person. And I think that both nonprofits and businesses get a pretty bad rap. Four often, whether these are reason right? Like [inaudible] they both have their issues at the same time, both feel super important gaps that couldn't be filled in any other way. But I think that, I think that we need to go beyond the sort of opposite would be [inaudible] you know, when you say for profit or nonprofit, I think that, I think that the winning model, the, the future venture let's say, I think has, has elements of both. And, and I mean this is actually in line with this, these actually in line with what I think is a bigger shift in, in, in just the genetic genomic framework that would expediency, not, Mmm. So if you, if you think of like, like if you take for example, traditional nonprofits and you see how they're funding right there, that people are probably founded by people who just provide the donation. Usually the regularly, every month or every year they sign a check, they forget about it and they then maybe at the end of the year they get, they get the a report, the mayor along with the, along with [inaudible], both God or something.

Iulian Circo: (08:35)
And if you look at, you know, every, every traditional nonprofit

Iulian Circo: (08:40)
Is looking at me that, that situation and they say, okay, we have money coming in now. But if they segment the money that comes in based on the age, let's say of the donors, they probably realize that 80 a Sam may be off their donation come from people or what, which is a super interesting thing is that, is that you look at the donations that these sticks and you realize that, you know, on the one hand, people have never been more generous than they are today. Meaning that most nonprofits received more donations, good. They than they used to be seeding the POS. You're not good with numbers, but at the same time, most of these donations come from people who are in their 50s or, or older. And that's in a way an expression of the, of the economics of the time. But there's also a behavioral thing where something more profound happened and that is that there's a new generation out there who just doesn't like it, signing checks and forgetting about it.

Iulian Circo: (09:38)
They don't, they need more or their money than just these some, some, some kind of genital idea, some fluffy idea about, Oh, I've done something good. I've had some poor people. And that's something that that's basically leading to a crisis in nonprofits that I think we were going to hear a lot more over the next few years. Meanwhile, in the business on the business side, you have a similar situation funds basically the origin of copy, but where, where, where, where the money kind of originates in, in mutual funds, in SIBO, in, in investment funds and kind of shareholder in, in shareholder [inaudible] hold up stock structures, experience a budget of the same thing. More old people use traditional methods. [inaudible] Has young people do something else and nobody understands what that is. Right. And you can see these trends. You see young people don't buy property like that pattern abuse. So they don't want the car like that. They don't open bank accounts, they don't have jobs and they kind of used to, this is all part of a bigger trend. Yeah. [inaudible] And actually my whole theory is my core thesis as an entrepreneur. He's actually related to these friends. [inaudible] [inaudible]

Iulian Circo: (10:54)
I think that's, we are now at the Dawn of a new economy frame. Right? And, and this, this new generation is very, very different than the generation before. Mmm. They, they question the economic fundamental. They question this idea that that economic growth is everything. They don't trust corporations like their parents used to. They don't trust government. They don't trust banks. They don't even trust the media. Right. They, they, they learn, they basically came of age. You, I need all fake news. [inaudible] And they are slowly developing an identity around purpose and authenticity. They, you know, they want to have authentic experiences. They want to have a purpose in their lives. They want to travel, they want to have more experiences. They want to, they really, really wanted a positive impact in the world. And this is right. I mean, I think that this is, this is basically what's going to us out of this mess.

Iulian Circo: (11:54)
The fact that the fact that we have, we have, we have potentially the emergence of a new economic framework in which purpose is central to everything that we do and the businesses that will succeed in the future. We have understood this very well. Mmm. Then I, it makes sense what I'm what I'm saying, but basically I think [inaudible] that's this idea of the purpose driven business first. Would it be, yeah, and I think it's been going on for a while. It's been the folding under the pressure from consumers, people who said, Hey, I actually want my food to be organic or I want my food [inaudible] free off slavery. I want my teacher to be slaves slavery. I want, my coffee will come from a supply chain where people get paid. These were the initial, this is one of the initial kind of the, the initial signs that consumer behavior is changing.

Iulian Circo: (12:50)
And now you see this in the mainstream, you go through, you'll go through to places like Tesco or, or Costco in the U S where, where you think that the whole, the whole model is around price. Since the pivot and you see organic [inaudible], you see, you see private laborers that are free trade. Mmm. And that's the consumer pressure. But slowly these consumers are becoming entrepreneurs and they be with businesses that I'm in line with them, they're becoming an investor and they become both boaters. They become, they become a meaningful sort of cluster in elections and they will inform governments as well. So, so, okay, who answer that? Actually your question. I think that the, that the F that the new business MTP in this new economy will be a combination of what today you'd call for profit and nonprofit and meaning that they will have to have some sort of positive impact embedded into what they do and invades their brand. And in this new setup, whether you're nonprofit or for property from a legal perspective, we're just be a top staff. I don't have anybody. Everybody will have to prove that they have some sort of positive impact in what they do.

Dragos: (14:07)
That's super interesting. You have no idea how fascinated I am about the whole economic debate and I want to ask a followup on that. But firstly, the first, the first question that pops to my mind and something that I've been wondering and I'm sure law of economies had tried to figure out is how do you measure that impact? Is there any way to evaluate companies based on the impact that they have in the world? Because so far the clear incentive is profits and maximizing shareholder value. And yeah, of course some of them might be pressured as we've seen recently with BlackRock and Microsoft announcing really ambitious targets to, to support the fight against climate change. But at the end of the day, the bottom line is still the main driver. There's no other metric that is put in place in there to evaluate their performance. Is there anything that you see that could take that role?

Iulian Circo: (14:59)
This is the, I mean, this is the best question. I mean, this is the, this is the core of it, of everything, right? Like [inaudible] well, understand people don't understand. People who run companies understand this consumer [inaudible] then they're not obliviously in there. Don't be oblivious to the strand. They're probably out of business already without knowing [inaudible]. And, and what do they do? They embrace norepi, right? So you, it's soup and they embrace not is because it's super easy, right? I can, I can hire a, I can hire a PR company and without some stories about how awesome. Yeah. You know, some sort of component of our business is, and [inaudible] [inaudible] and they get away with it. I mean, I, I want to just ask you something super practical, open. I don't know if you have an online broker or or or, or your listeners and just open their own line broker interface on the web and just so much for sustainable investment opportunities and you will find, you'll see that you will find sustainable is basically when we don't invest in [inaudible].

Iulian Circo: (16:04)
That's the extent of it. [inaudible] Maybe you can be deeper and you'll find, you know, you'll find like a newish product, which is basically an ESG. The investments were where there's an active, there's an occupy attendance too, who, you know, do respect some ESG norms in the business, but these are skills or additional businesses [inaudible] there's no way to know whether or not the externalities, the negative externalities are higher than their positive extent. There's no way to know. Yes, they are. Consider they're considered, I consider the positive [inaudible] sustainable businesses. And that's exactly because of what you're saying. It's really, really hard. Go measure your externalities and it's even harder to measure them on an ongoing basis. [inaudible] To have, you'll have like a daily metrics. I don't get extra knowledge and that's the problem that we have to solve. And I truly believe that we will not make a lot of progress with the way we [inaudible] that we set up our businesses and how we think about [inaudible] and how will you invest when we've driven by sustainability.

Iulian Circo: (17:10)
If we do find them an easy way for people to measure that economical and that's something that has to be sold, right? Like, like going back a bit to sort of taking a step back and looking at the bigger economic kind of trend, right? Like indeed in the APS you had the whole economy moving from like Capito and labor. I mean formation, it was really hard for a typical company too, being in this new economy, but they had to do it. They had to adapt because if they didn't, they just became irrelevant. Then there was the internet in the 90s you, if you weren't on the internet, your business would just no go away. Was it easy to do it? No. At the time it was really hard. People, people investing a lot of money with the service that they get through the basement. Just a bit.

Iulian Circo: (17:53)
This'll to get all night because that's why, you know, they had to vet people eyes. This whole [inaudible] verticalize this whole idea I need the modern infrastructure would be on the internet, but if I'm not on the internet I just can't even play. And then AWS skim around cloud computing, all of a sudden we didn't have to vet people that you're to have to have expensive service, not even your basement. It became a lot easier go online because he just had to swipe your credit card and then open the car and then you know you, you'd be online. Right. And I think, you know, social media was the same and when he came around, people just had to hire, they had to hire whole teams and see what these social media businesses and now it's easy. You, you know, you'll, you'll sign up or baffled or whatever. [inaudible]

Iulian Circo: (18:36)
That's something like that will happen with purpose as well. Now it's getting really hot, really good companies with a lot of money into a measuring and report. [inaudible] There, you said the early adopters, these are the, these are the ones that [inaudible] plays the tray that's slowly, we have to make it easy. Four people [inaudible] measured any report that externalities and more importantly, we have to make it compatible. I need to be able, as an investor to compare investing in company a versus company B based on the externalities, without having to spend, without having to spend a lot of money in hiding all the peasants on. If we solve that problem, I think that's what's going to Asha, this new, this new economy. Because it's not unreasonable to expect of an entrepreneur, someone who starts a business who is, you know, cash stock and stuff. [inaudible] It's really hard to expect that, that they would verticalize impact measurements into their operations when their businesses, I don't know important coffee or, or, or building something. So that's the phone that we have to solve that if we solve that. We're good.

Dragos: (19:40)
I understand. Are there any examples, specific examples, cause you said there are companies that are measuring and reporting their externalities. Are there any examples that you can point to?

Iulian Circo: (19:53)
Mmm, yeah, I think there are, I think there are, but they're all, they're all ventricles, right? Are all the companies that report on their emissions. Mmm. But you know, emmissions just admissions is just part of your total externality. But there are companies that export them their labor standards. There are companies, the big sport on there, waste management, but there is no company that can think of that, that he's trying to report on all that external audience across the board. I think that's going to change. I think that's going to change first of all with, I mean obviously with pressure from the consumer then with pressure from shareholders who say, well, you know, we want you to do this and you're going to see, I think over the next year already you're going to start seeing a lack of voluntary reporting of externalities, even outside [inaudible] mission or waste management or whatever.

Iulian Circo: (20:44)
And then you'll have slowly pressure from the regulators I guess. And you'll see that the Europe already with them with the new, a new deal, the green new deal for Europe. And I, I think at the, at the level of individual governments, we'll see versions of that already happening. So soon enough companies will have to, we'll have to to report on X analysis and in a way proof of impact, you know my company, it's all about building the utility infrastructure that would make it easy for, for companies to measure that impact, not only for comment, whatever you want them to. Oh, organizations, governments, communities, it would make it easy. You're basically verify and fact that,

Dragos: (21:32)
Yeah, I wanted to precisely go there with the next question. So moving back a bit so that people understand proof of impact and what you guys do. You saw province, so you identify the trend before a lot of other people did. You wrote your white paper in 2016, if I'm not mistaken. So that was after Etherium was launched, but before the 2017 cryptocurrency boom, that kind of put it into the mainstream and brought a lot of other people into the fold for people who are not that aware about cryptocurrencies and blockchain we'll discuss a bit, we'll try to keep it as easy to understand as possible, but basically Etherium is seen by our team, most people as the next leap forward in terms of blockchain technology after Bitcoin where Bitcoin is perceived as, I wouldn't call it basic, but a lot of people think of it as antiquated and not really being able to scale.

Dragos: (22:31)
Whereas Etherium introduced smart contracts. So all of a sudden on blockchain you could do a lot of other stuff that you couldn't do before. And the launch of Ethereum is actually what caused the entire ICO, the initial coin offering mania of 2017. Because the smart contracts and the theory, I'm actually made it possible for people to raise money and avoid traditional means of doing so. Now it's only purpose is not to raise money. It has a law of other applications. And that's what I wanted to ask you. Why, why did you see promise in blockchain technology in 2016 and how did you envision blockchain would help you make proof of impact? A startup that can that can help the world by measuring impact in a transparent way?

Iulian Circo: (23:19)
So I actually think that there's a lot of technology that never went anywhere, although it's really good technology and I think that truly Julie kind of revolutionary technology or the hundred that has a profound impact, it's always a mix of the right technology makes me some sort of Kartra consciousness, collective consciousness of some soul that just makes everything you guys on it. Right? And blockchain is not, it's no different, right? Like blockchain, if you, if you, if you look at it, you would just move away from technology for a second. Blockchain emerged like Bitcoin, Bitcoin white paper, a March from the financial crisis of 2008. Right? When, when just a lot of people got like he'd really hard bye. Well they perceive this corruption, mismanagement of families, just unethical behavior across the board from big corporations, from banks, from government. And, and blockchain was a way blockchain, the emergence of block block and tapping into this in, into this Austin, much of that crisis, right?

Iulian Circo: (24:33)
Blockchain is all about all about, you know, you don't have to trust any central authority. You [inaudible] send us your resistance. We can't be corruption on the blockchain. Sure. It's possible, but it's just something that that's, that is not that easy. Right. [inaudible] and we have a whole generation basically that, right. You know, they're just these values, this principle just resonate with them. Mmm. And I've, you know, I mean, I, as someone who's operated always at the frontier market, I thought, so, you know, as I said, since that pretty much since the uneaten thousands, I've been exclusively living and operating in frontier markets. Mmm. And there, I thought from the beginning, I saw a blockchain could be such a volume boat thing, right. Where, where you don't, you know, you don't have to put up with really bad fiscal policies where you don't have to put up with any bad a banking infrastructure.

Iulian Circo: (25:28)
What are you going to put up with, with all the corruption that people experience in their everyday lives? So I sort of what I got super interested pretty much when I've heard about blockchain, when I said I made an effort to understand what it's all about. And I still believe that it is, it is a tool that can mitigate these exposures that come from bad infrastructure, bad policies. Mmm. And you know, I mean, I, but I do think that, I do think that the Catholic community, the, the, the, the more interesting applicability of blockchain is beyond just financial money or, or, or sets of some salt, right? And proof of impact. Basically you just blocked bank as a way through who we basically use impact verification as a proof of war. And that's going to sound jargony. But, but every, every token, every, every event that we verify that has happened and these events are, these events have things that correlate directly with some sort of positive emotion, right?

Iulian Circo: (26:35)
A solar panel that has been installed, someone on a, on a, on an install, a child that the vaccinate, a kilogram of plastic was taken out of the ocean somewhere. These are things that if they happen any state, if we can verify them, we basically use that as the, as the is the energy that generates a new token. Right? And that means that it means that all of a sudden doing something that has supposed to be impact could have volume because it just, that generates a, that generates a token that someone, anyone in the world maybe in deceit, Dubai. And that's basically the principle behind why we verify in fact events. And once they're very fine, they get, they get committed to a, to a blockchain but [inaudible] basically. And then they can be used as cooperators in building products that are simple product, like a donations.

Iulian Circo: (27:30)
You know, you can go on our website and, and, and you know, find someone in the Philippines, in South Africa to take out some plastic from the ocean and you get proof that happened and when it happened and you got the GPS location and everything. But the more interesting thing is you take events like that and you were struck, so then do a new generation of financial problems which would help unlock that capital that we were, we were talking about earlier, that is just sitting there waiting for some impactful products that have just not on the market at the moment. And that's basically where we play. We use this, these granular event data and we build financial of that.

Dragos: (28:10)
Super interesting. And just so that people understand, we also did an episode with Nortey and they also have a, they have a carbon removal marketplace on blockchain and we tried to dive into the details of blockchain back then, but basically this is verifiable, like uniquely verifiable rights, the token that you create. It only represents, it couldn't be double counted basically. Yeah. So you can accurately measure the setback. And then as you said, if a company or organization wants to basically help the world in some sort of way, they can purchase these tokens. They know they're unique, they're their digital assets that they can hold in their wallet, in their blockchain wallet. And then they can then say, look, we funded these activities and this is the proof that we've had impact through our investment. Correct.

Iulian Circo: (29:09)
Right, right. That's just a basic, that's just the basic application of it. I'm going to give you an example of a more interesting, more, maybe I'd be more sophisticated, but, right. So, so let's say that you have someone and you know, I mean I w I will not give you, I will not give you the complete names, but we are working, we are working with the nominal partners on product. Right? So let's say that you have like that it's definitely someone who has an interest in decreasing child mortality in a given community rather than the government and country. Or it's maybe a big donor or some sort of multinational organization that would be super, you know, that they have a, they have a mandate and an interest in reducing child mortality in a community by 5%. Let's say. We can sit down with the, we call, we call them the underwriting, right?

Iulian Circo: (30:03)
We can sit down with them and say, Hey, how, how much are you willing to pay or are looking at your budget and as start to do over the next five years, how much money are you actually committing towards reducing the child metallic in this community by 5% and they say, why do we have 30 million Euro or whatever. I'm just making up numbers. I just thought for the sake of keeping it practical, now we can look at the, we have enough information, just demographics and population level information and what some of these easy information. Then we can look at any given community on this planet and makeup Preethy solid model. You understand how things correlate with child mortality, right? So we know the, we know the fertility rate, we know the [inaudible] population, which helps us understand how many children are going to be born over the next five years.

Iulian Circo: (30:51)
You got community, we know the current mortality rate, you know the burden of disease, meaning why these children are dying and then we, you know, we can zero in on three, four or thinking event, right? Which is what this is what this is, what public has. They say what for the next five years we need to increase vaccinations and [inaudible] and meaning tape or whatever, whatever it may be. Right? And now we pay, we have, we have an underwriter that you don't debate that the median for these high level results, we have a model that shows us that, that the meta and vaccination and for there [inaudible] consultation. So the next few years with probably leads correlate to a decrease of 5% in this community and only verify in Christ any individual, right? So you can voice any investor and say, I'm going to pay for the four, five bucks a nation just as a regular person on your phone.

Iulian Circo: (31:44)
Do you know if vaccination is priced at $700 let's say, and you can just bye. You can provide the cash [inaudible] seven vaccinations to have happened in this community and you guys verification that they happen and now you at the same time because it's on a blockchain, all the vaccinations that happened out on the blockchain, you can at any point see how many vaccinations that happen with the clear understanding that once the set, the quantity of the milestone it's reached, the contract gets activated, then you're going to be paid a fee for your vaccination. Right. If [inaudible] do you mean about vaccinations happen then that that'd be million dollar or 70 a unit by the underwriting and all of a sudden you can be like regular investors. Okay, well my premium now if I'm missing a $7 my, my premium now would be, you know, five or six.

Iulian Circo: (32:35)
So I'm, I'm, I'm buying to make a big profit but then ECCP but as the time passes, [inaudible] just do this profile with his new information because it's real time and then you buy more. If you think that the likelihood of these events, the quandary event will happen is high, you buy more or you sell it because you're saying, well this is a pretty bad investment, which will bring w which will being priced discovery first of all. And second of all it would bring liquidity into finding impact basically. So at the end of it, you would have invested, you were then invested $7 into a vaccination program and you would have made handler as once this one, all of us have managed to achieve that quantity, milestone of vaccination and everybody wins, right? So you were, your investment is profitable, the vaccinations happened. So there's that.

Iulian Circo: (33:25)
You talk that happened with that community and the underwriter gets performance based. They only pay for success. So there is gets the loot. Yeah. I mean the risk is a lot lower than it would be now. And then you go and you have an example of a, of a pretty sophisticated financial product, the funds exclusive meaning and you can do that environmental in, in, in the climate change [inaudible] you can even clean water. [inaudible] You can even do with infrastructure. I can use models like this to fund the upgrade of, for example, grids. You can, you know, you can convert the community from an old Redrow smart grid. We exactly the same logic. You pre-sell off of impact that coordinate with whatever you're trying to do. And then you'll have someone who pays if someone pays once a dove is done. And that's how one could be either an underwriter in the example that I gave you. Well, it could be the community who, who wants to have an opinion degree, but going in the capital to do it, you know, have I confused you with travelers or, or

Dragos: (34:28)
No, I understand. I understand perfectly. I hope people who listen understand as well. I perfectly understand what it's all about. And I mean, I've been in crypto and blockchain for three years, so I kind of understand what, how it works. But more recently, I'm kind of by diving deep into this, I'm kind of understanding how these financial markets make a difference. Because looking at you, the thing that really stuck with me was when you said it brings the liquidity into impact because having watched Materium of United group does project, I'm probably going to have him on the podcast soon. He brings, he wants to bring liquidity into consumption. So we have liquidity into how we pay for things, but he wants to bring liquidity into, into consumption and basically optimize the way that we consume goods so that we don't over consume. And it's in a similar system where you use blockchain and tokens because that's how you buy tokenizing it. You bring the quiddity into it. So thanks for explaining that. It's really interesting. Do you guys have a token, your own native token or how does it work on that end?

Iulian Circo: (35:36)
Every, every, we don't have a, we don't have a user Pacey and we took a decision to not do that and I think that it was the right decision. Mmm. Because it's not necessary. The thing is that, the thing is that blockchain is one of those technologies. He's super intimidating. And if you are not [inaudible] you just don't want to. And I can so complicated the interface, the dealing with the thing, the private keys, it's all so complicated, you know, and, and risky and you know, and, and we've like, I think in 2000 pretty much after we found it, we, we decided to not be run, not even speak too much about bro. Like if you go on our website you won't even find you know, blockchain is a central to what we do. And it doesn't have to be because rupture is just if you, if blockchains used well it's just a tool that not something really well that solves a problem that that wouldn't be solved in a different way or it would be really difficult or expensive or whatever.

Iulian Circo: (36:37)
That's the, that's how things, you know, do you need to walk, you know, like when I go and, and buy something from Amazon, I don't, I don't worry about about that. The servers and how they, they manage their warehouses and the, you know, how they watch it, the system they use to know exactly. You know, what spoke they have. And I don't really care about that. What I want is I want to buy this thing and I want it to come to him. And if he doesn't arrive tomorrow, then I get upset. That's amazing. You got hard work and bye bye. Trying to build everything around blockchain. Many companies in our space, even really good complex, like teams that have fantastic products, I see them fair because they just don't get, people just don't get past this thing. It's just what, this is broken. I'm not the broken person.

Iulian Circo: (37:19)
I'm gonna say that. And we just took the decision to not even speak about it. So, so our job as a company is to give our, our, our clients, I'll use that. An awesome experience, right? You've got a website. Your mission is to, your mission is to clean a beach. W you know, you, you, you, you, you want to see these people in South Africa or in the Philippines though I didn't like cleaning up the beach. You're going to get the, you're going to get to follow them in real time, how they're doing and then you, you get the result of that. Which is, which is, you know, the Yukon, you get the into your own or portfolio, you know, you build a home or follow you around and that's all the experience you need. And if you need to dig deeper, short, you can dig deeper and you know, you can find that token and creep on it, then you can go and eat with a scanner and see the details. Thank you. People want to do that. In fact, most people don't even want to hear about that.

Dragos: (38:13)
Yeah, I agree. And you know, there was that whole mania we're funding with ICO is in 2017 and everyone thought, Oh, it's coming. Adoption is here. Then the whole market tanked. And you saw people slowly, slowly, well not slowly, actually quite fast leaving the space and people are still waiting for that adoption. But I see a lot of people focused on like, you know, I mean I've been in this space, you've been in this space. I, I've handled a ton of tokens. I have ledgers, you know, that I use to send the tokens. I sent it to different wallets on different blockchains on different exchanges. I'm sure that people who have never been in touch with, with blockchain just listened to me and they have no idea what I'm talking about. And this whole experience, yeah, we can navigate like geeks and transfer value or transfer digital assets from one to another, but the user experience is very poor and there's no way this can take off in its current form.

Dragos: (39:13)
And even a theory in itself is, is I mean for people to understand. And I think many people in crypto don't understand this either, but in theory them is basically like a PR. It's a protocol. So it's, it's as if I would expect everyone to understand how HTTP or www work, which nobody does except for the ex experts. Everyone just knows kind of maybe they know what they do and they just expect them to work and they work in there, in the background and they do their work very well in the background. And the point that she made about blockchain is exactly that. That's how it should work. You should have blockchain underpinning the system and knowing that it's valid and unique and it's, it's basically proven the impact is proven as your name suggests. But you want it running in the background so that it doesn't affect your user experience.

Dragos: (40:06)
So yeah, I really agree with your point and I really see how, how this can work especially as people become more and more aware of climate change. I wanted to ask you finally, because it's a question that I ask every guest, and maybe because we haven't touched on this so far in the episode and it'll be going on for awhile, but maybe we can, we can spark a short discussion on this and, and see how all these elements interact. So ask if he gets to rank the following sectors in order of importance. Some people rank them, some people just want to talk about their interdependencies. I know probably personally, I, I don't necessarily want to rank them because I see them as interdependent, but basically if you want it to comment on what you think is most important politics and policy. So whatever governments do to incentivize renewables, stop fossil fuel subsidies, et cetera.

Dragos: (40:58)
And Oh, by the way, we're talking about preventing climate change here. The second one being society. So activism, civil disobedience, lifestyle changes. I, I, in this part, I see a lot of what you referenced, you know, about the young generation, and I've had a lot of, I'm having a lot of activists on my show as well. The third round is businesses. So businesses such as yours, innovating businesses, innovating the energy industry, but also less funding of fossil fuel companies and less emissions overall. And then finally, scientific research and innovation. This can even be breakthroughs in blockchain technology, but more so breakthroughs in energy efficiency, battery power in usage, nuclear technology and all of that. So from your vantage point, how do you think these sectors interact and how would you rank them if you, if you were to rank them?

Iulian Circo: (41:51)
Well, I mean, I think obviously they're super interdependent, right? So you know, first you had some sort of scientific evidence that whatever's going on is bad. Then you have the society stopping to worry about it. That will affect businesses. We'll try to, you know, obviously the needs of their customers now, you know, that will affect also politics of course. So it's all, it's all kind of related, you know? But, but again, I think that, I think that the most important thing is at the society level. Again, like I'm, I'm an optimist guy and like, I actually think that we're, we're blooming arise because I see that people that take the CDC now a lot more than they used to even 50 years ago. Right? Like I see now people cross segment across generation really worrying about it and everybody is like, what can I do about it?

Iulian Circo: (42:43)
You know? And that's fantastic. Probably the most popular thing that people can do his boat, right? And I that's sure. I mean, you can recycle, then you can stop eating meat, you can do all of that, but you can't have your impact. It's just so small relative to what a massive corporation buys in terms of their, their footprint. Right? So you'll, because the influx shouldn't, you know, and I think that everybody should do that and that they should adjust their lifestyle to the crisis that we've gone through. The train will come from everybody, all of us saying, I want the government that cares. I want to, you know, I want to do business with businesses that care. And that's the drive everything else. Right. And then, you know, well, you know, as the stop it becomes [inaudible] it gets embedded into the collective consciousness. Then people would do more research about we then people would be the new business models around within businesses. If this thing didn't we find waste, why not? And that's what needs to happen. So, so to answer your question, I mean, they're obviously related and I think that where we need to start, you said the society and that will drive everything else because businesses, right, we'll be in touch with what's going on in the society. Cause otherwise they have no customers. And the same with without, and this is, by the way, the idea of state and you know, in practice. Is that a lot more messy I guess.

Dragos: (44:04)
Yeah, yeah. I, I'm on exactly on the same page as you. It's funny because a lot of different people have different opinions and obviously they can all be valid. I'm very much on the same page as you, especially since everyone that I've spoken to on this podcast that has been in the, in the climate change space for awhile has said that 2018 and 2019 have been big, big shifts. They've seen big shifts in the way that people to this and everyone cites Gretta tomb Berg extinction rebellion. And a few other end, the, the IPC report, the 1.5 degree and two degree warming that kind of raised awareness on this. And I think it went, it went past the boiling point and now it, it went to the, into the mainstream. And you have this chain effect. Even me starting this podcast is a direct consequence of that. And now you see more and more people, yeah. More and more people trying to do what they can do. I've see people investors in, in San Francisco turning to funding climate change companies. I'm starting a, a media company around this. Everyone's doing whatever they can either to raise awareness to help through their businesses. People get involved in politics. So everyone's just kind of trying to maximize this, their skill sets to, to solve this problem. And it all started because of this this raising awareness. So I'm definitely on the same page as you.

Iulian Circo: (45:32)
Yeah. And I, I have this thing that I had been saying over the last year or so. He said that the climate crisis is this generation Vietnam, right. And doing something about it is rock and roll, Rhonda. This is it. This is the rock and roll and, and it's cool. It ha, you know, and that's gonna that's gonna make a big difference. It is. It is. It is totally at the center of a whole generation. And you may not see that, that the, at the level of policies now and the level of companies now, but slowly it's going to be a lot more, a lot more prominent. And, you know, the announcement that we sold recently spoke about it before we started recording the announcement from, from black rock. From last week or two weeks ago that they are putting sustainability, get the center of their, of their of their portfolio.

Iulian Circo: (46:20)
Isn't it? Because black rock all of a sudden became a good company. It's because they realize that if they don't offer, if they don't offer these type of products, they will become irrelevant. And then they'll just slide into oblivion because people just view reviews in gait. And I love that. And, and these are the things that that makes me keep me [inaudible] everywhere you go, you see, if we, the I kinds of eyes, you can see signs of this, you know, and that's how we win. And, and in fact, going on about BlackRock and just the financial markets, that's, that's what's, that's where the big opportunity is now. We have, we have a huge amount of Cod. We're talking about trillions of dollars that is actively seeking. It's actively seeking investment opportunities and they don't have enough people though. And, and black rock investing in sustainable [inaudible] is then being smart and being, being kind of driven by greed, basically saying, well there's all these money you're looking for for sustainable products, ms, deal them. Cause then we get of the money. And I like that thing because that's, that's the reality of how people think and if we, if we have more of that then the Becca.

Dragos: (47:38)
Yeah. And just to, to kind of conclude, I started interviewing activists. I've spoken to one and I have a few other interviews scheduled and I mean I'm 28 years old, right? I used to consider myself pretty young, like the young, young generation. But now I'm seeing these, these kids who are 1415 1617 climate activists and they're so eloquent and the way they tweet and, and the way they write about these issues, it's pretty much at the same level of understanding that I have of them now. And I, I think back to when I was in high school and of course, I mean I didn't grow up in a, in an age where, I mean I had my first, my first iPhone in, in high school in my last year. So I was still, you know, like probably had more access to technology in the law of other people.

Dragos: (48:29)
But these kids, they have access to this information now at 14 years old and they developed the knowledge and the ability to speak about it at a young age. And you can see a shift everywhere with young people and you can see it in the polls and in, in what politicians they vote for, especially in the U S and the U K. So I definitely see that shift coming and you're completely right. If businesses don't adapt, then this generation that is up and coming who is going to be in power and five, 10, 15 years is not going to happen anymore. And something needs to shift for that to happen.

Iulian Circo: (49:05)
Yeah. Yeah.

Dragos: (49:08)
Awesome. Thank you very much for your time and for this interview. I'll definitely link proof of impact and your personal Twitter profile and everything else that we spoke about in the show notes and yeah, I wish you the best of luck and hope that we can do this again soon.

Iulian Circo: (49:24)
Thank you. You too. All the best. Thanks a lot.